216: Porshe Chiles — Can We Talk?

BEMA Episode Link: 216: Porshe Chiles — Can We Talk?
Episode Length: 50:46
Published Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 01:00:00 -0700
Session 6
About this episode:

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings are joined by special guest Porshe Chiles. She holds a master’s degree in higher education from the University of North Texas, and she is currently the associate director of global research at Wake Forest University. Moving from Texas to Japan to North Carolina, and other places in between, Porshe has a wealth of experience in language and intercultural studies.

Discussion Video for BEMA 216

Jude 3 Project Podcast

The Disrupters Podcast (Esau McCaulley)

Epiphany Fellowship Church Podcast (Eric Mason)

BEMA 192: Telling a Story

Endurance Consulting

Endurance Consulting on Instagram

Can We Talk? Facebook Community

Transcript for BEMA 216

Additional audio production by Gus Simpson

Special Guest: Porshe Chiles.

Notes

*Note: The following notes are handwritten by me, Adam, and I reserve the right to be wrong.

BEMA Episode 216: Porshe Chiles - Can We Talk?

Title & Source Summary

Episode: 216 - Porshe Chiles: Can We Talk? Hosts: Marty Solomon and Brent Billings Guest: Porshe Chiles (Associate Director of Global Research at Wake Forest University) Focus: Race, representation, and belonging in the Biblical narrative

This episode features an important conversation with Porshe Chiles, who shares her experience as a black woman engaging with BEMA content. While appreciating the Eastern perspective and deconstructive theology presented in the podcast, Porshe addresses feeling unseen and unrepresented in the Biblical narrative as traditionally taught. The conversation explores how Western Christianity has often missed opportunities to highlight the diverse, cross-cultural nature of Scripture, particularly the presence and significance of people of African descent throughout the Biblical story. This honest, compassionate dialogue demonstrates the importance of curiosity and empathy in building a more inclusive understanding of God’s narrative.

Key Takeaways

The Biblical narrative is geographically centered in the Middle East and North Africa, making it inherently diverse and multicultural, yet Western teaching often presents it through a narrow, homogeneous lens
People of African descent appear throughout Scripture in significant ways, from Hagar and the Egyptians in the Exodus to the Ethiopian eunuch, but these connections are rarely emphasized in Western Christian teaching
Removing the Bible from its cultural, geographical, and political context creates an abstract theology that fails to speak to the real, lived experiences of diverse communities
The emphasis on individualism in Western culture stands in opposition to the deeply communal nature of both Biblical culture and many non-Western cultures today
At every Biblical glimpse of heaven, diversity is the first thing mentioned - every tribe, tongue, and nation - indicating that diversity is not just tolerated but celebrated in God’s design
Learning to truly listen to and see people whose experiences differ from our own is essential to understanding the full scope of God’s narrative and partnering with Him in His work
The scattering at Babel was not a curse but God’s design to force humanity to learn empathy, curiosity, and how to work across differences

Main Concepts & Theories

The Eastern Perspective and Deconstructive Theology

Porshe describes how BEMA’s Eastern perspective was transformational for her because it decentered the US lens through which she had always heard the Gospel. Learning about covenant relationships, cultural practices, and geographical contexts helped her see the Bible in “enlightened geographical ways and enlightened cultural ways.” This perspective allowed her to:

Compare different biblical translations and versions with deeper understanding
Recognize when teachings had been taken out of context
Better understand connections between Old and New Testaments
Grasp what partnership with God might look like in practical, communal terms

The podcast’s approach of reading Scripture through its original Eastern, Jewish context provided scales-off-the-eyes moments that deepened her faith and understanding of God.

Western Individualism vs. Biblical Communalism

A central tension Porshe identifies is the conflict between Western individualism and the communal nature of both Biblical culture and many other global cultures. Western culture’s “I-centered” ideology stands in opposition to:

The communal practices she experienced in Japan and other international contexts
The deeply communal nature of Hebrew culture and God’s chosen people
The value of holding tightly to cultural and ethnic identities not to exclude others but to preserve important traditions
Practices like call-and-response in black churches that mirror synagogue traditions
Intergenerational family structures that embody biblical teaching about older generations instructing younger ones

This communal orientation resonates with black American culture and connects to the broader biblical narrative in ways that Western individualism obscures.

The Geography of Scripture and Ethnic Diversity

Porshe raises critical questions about geography and representation that expose gaps in typical Western biblical teaching:

Egypt is in Africa, yet Western teaching often disconnects it from the African continent
The biblical world centered at the “crossroads of the earth” would have been incredibly diverse
People groups from the Table of Nations in Genesis represent vast ethnic and cultural diversity
The closer to the equator, the darker skin tones would naturally be
References to people of Cushite (Ethiopian) descent appear throughout Scripture but are rarely emphasized
The fact that biblical figures like Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt suggests they could blend in there

The Middle East-North Africa (MENA) region was a crossroads of civilizations where people from multiple continents, cultures, and ethnic backgrounds would regularly interact. This diversity is biblically significant but often minimized in Western teaching.

Missed Opportunities for Inclusive Storytelling

Throughout the conversation, Marty acknowledges specific missed opportunities in BEMA’s teaching:

Hagar - An Egyptian servant who encounters God and declares Him “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13). Her story speaks powerfully to those who feel unseen and discarded.

Zipporah - Moses’ wife, a Midianite whose father Jethro, according to Midrash, came from deep Egypt. She would likely have had significant African ancestry.

The Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8) - A deeply African, dark-skinned official who asks Philip, “What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” His question was fundamentally about belonging: “Is this story for me or just for Jews?” Philip’s answer connects to Isaiah 58, which promises that eunuchs and foreigners will have a place and a name in God’s house.

The Egyptians in the Exodus - Some Egyptians joined the Israelites leaving Egypt. What happened to them? Were they enveloped into the larger narrative? Their stories matter.

Pentecost - Jewish people from different cultural, ethnic, and linguistic backgrounds gathered. What would those intercultural relationships have looked like?

These stories contain powerful themes of inclusion, belonging, and God’s intentional embrace of diverse peoples, but they require intentional emphasis to counteract centuries of Western-centric interpretation.

The Curse of Ham - A Destructive Misinterpretation

Marty addresses the harmful “curse of Ham” doctrine that falsely taught black skin was a curse. In reality, the biblical and Jewish conversation about Ham’s descendants (including Mizraim and Cush) does call out differences in appearance, but the point is that these people were mistreated because they looked different from the majority. The text critiques this mistreatment and connects it to God’s people: “I loved you because you know what it’s like to be mistreated.” This is the opposite of teaching racial hierarchy - it’s teaching solidarity with the oppressed.

Revelation 7:9 - The Heavenly Kaleidoscope

Throughout Scripture, every glimpse of heaven emphasizes diversity first: “every nation, tribe, and tongue.” Porshe notes this is the verse always mentioned in church conversations about diversity, pointing to a future hope. But the question becomes: why wait for heaven? If this is what God desires and celebrates, why not pursue it now?

The emphasis on diversity in these heavenly visions suggests witnesses could see and recognize the different nations, tribes, and tongues - a “kaleidoscope of people and humanity” that represents God’s design and delight.

The Tower of Babel - Learning Empathy Through Difference

Brent and Marty discuss how the scattering at Babel is often misunderstood as a curse when it’s actually God’s intervention to prevent destructive uniformity. God recognized that if humanity accomplished whatever they wanted without having to work across differences, the result would be “unbelievably destructive.”

By creating multiple languages and cultures, God forced humanity to:

Learn empathy and curiosity
Develop the ability to listen to and learn from others
Honor and respect people who are different
Work together across differences

The implication is clear: if humanity is ever to “work together again” or “put the world back together,” it will require learning to truly listen, getting over ourselves, and valuing others’ experiences and perspectives.

Living Faith in Context - Not Abstract Theology

Porshe makes a powerful statement: “I cannot separate Biblical Texts from my current events, past events, social issues of today and yesterday.” Her faith is not abstract but lived reality:

She has a copy of her ancestors’ slave manifest from New Orleans to South Carolina
The plantation her grandfather’s family came from still stands
She is related to the families who owned them
These ancestors believed the Gospel - they clung to the Exodus story, believing the God who freed Israel could and would bring freedom to them
They lived with hope for freedom they couldn’t see, feel, or experience, but believed was real

This connection between ancient biblical narratives and recent American history is not optional for Porshe - it’s the lived reality of faith. The same God who brought exodus from Egypt was the God her enslaved ancestors called upon. Removing politics, race, and social issues from biblical interpretation is a luxury afforded to those whose identity and experience align with the dominant culture.

Imago Dei - Made in God’s Image

A recurring theme is that Porshe was “intentionally created” in her skin and ethnic identity by God. She was made in the imago dei (image of God) just as anyone else was, “and that’s good to Him.” This theological foundation affirms:

God’s intentional design in creating ethnic and cultural diversity
Every person’s dignity and value as an image-bearer of God
God’s desire to partner with people of all nations, tribes, tongues, and hues
The goodness of diversity, not just its tolerance

Examples & Applications

Practical Steps for More Inclusive Biblical Teaching

Porshe offers concrete suggestions for creating more inclusive biblical scholarship and teaching:

Amplify diverse voices - Include scholars and teachers of color who offer unique perspectives while remaining faithful to the text. She specifically mentions:
- Jude 3 Podcast - Black believers helping people understand why they believe what they believe
- Esau McCaulley - Biblical scholar
- Pastor Eric Mason - Teacher helping remove Western lens from biblical interpretation
Be specific about geography and ethnicity - When teaching biblical narratives:
- Name specific locations and who lived there
- Discuss what people in those regions would have looked like
- Explain how they would have engaged with other people groups
- Apply the same geographical and cultural detail to African and Asian contexts that we do for Greek and Roman contexts
Highlight intercultural relationships - Explore the cross-cultural and intercultural relationships in Scripture:
- The day of Pentecost and Jewish people from different backgrounds
- The early church community and its ethnic diversity
- Examples of non-Middle Eastern, non-Greek, non-Roman people in the early church
Connect historical context - Don’t teach the Bible as if it exists in an abstract vacuum separate from politics, race, and real human experience

The Ethiopian Eunuch - A Case Study in Belonging

The story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8) becomes a powerful parallel to Porshe’s own experience reaching out to BEMA. Just as the eunuch asked, “What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” - fundamentally asking “Do I belong?” - Porshe essentially asked the same question: “What stands in the way of my being part of this narrative?”

Brent notes Porshe’s chutzpah (bold courage) in reaching out, mirroring the eunuch’s boldness. Both were asking to be seen and included in a story they desperately wanted to be part of. Philip’s answer connected to Isaiah 58, which promises foreigners and eunuchs will have “a name better than sons and daughters” - a permanent place in God’s house.

This story should be taught not primarily as theological proof-texts about Jesus, but as a narrative about belonging, inclusion, and God’s expansive welcome to those who feel like outsiders.

Hagar - The God Who Sees

Hagar’s declaration “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13) speaks powerfully to anyone who has felt unseen, discarded, or marginalized. As an Egyptian servant caught in complex family dynamics, she encounters God in the wilderness and experiences being seen by Him. This story offers profound comfort and affirmation to those whose experiences have been overlooked or minimized in dominant narratives.

Black Church Traditions and Ancient Practices

The call-and-response tradition in many black churches connects to ancient synagogue practices and communal reading of texts. Recognizing these connections helps validate cultural expressions of faith that might otherwise be dismissed as merely emotional or unsophisticated. Instead, they represent continuity with ancient, biblical practices that emphasize community participation and collective engagement with Scripture.

The Necessity of Diverse Community

Porshe’s work includes Can We Talk, a program engaging faith-based communities in conversations about race and belief systems. She also runs Endurance Consulting LLC, offering training on diversity, inclusion, international education, culture, and justice from a faith-based perspective grounded in the imago dei.

This work recognizes that building diverse, inclusive communities requires:

Intentional conversations
Willingness to be uncomfortable
Commitment to listening and learning
Recognition that people are created in God’s image
Pursuit of shalom (peace/wholeness) here and now, not just in heaven

Potential Areas for Further Exploration

African Christianity in the Early Church - Research the spread of Christianity throughout North and East Africa in the first centuries. How did the Ethiopian eunuch’s faith impact his community? What was the early African church like?
The Table of Nations (Genesis 10) - Study the various people groups listed and their geographical locations. Map out the ethnic and cultural diversity represented at the “crossroads” of the ancient world.
Cushite References in Scripture - Track all references to Cush, Cushites, and Ethiopia throughout the Bible. What roles do these individuals and nations play in the larger biblical narrative?
Moses’ Family Connections to Africa - Explore the implications of Moses’ marriage to Zipporah and his connections through Jethro. What does Miriam’s criticism of his Cushite wife (Numbers 12) reveal about ethnic tensions even among God’s people?
The Egyptian Influence on Israel - Study the cultural exchange between Egypt and Israel, including the Egyptians who joined the Exodus, Joseph’s time in Egypt, and the Jesus family’s refuge there.
Visual Representations of Biblical Figures - Examine how art history has portrayed biblical figures throughout the centuries and across cultures. How have different cultures imagined and depicted the people of Scripture?
Liberation Theology and the Exodus - Explore how enslaved people and oppressed communities have read and applied the Exodus narrative throughout history. What does this reveal about the political and social dimensions of the text?
Contemporary Voices in Biblical Scholarship - Read works by scholars of color who are bringing fresh perspectives to biblical interpretation:
- Esau McCaulley’s “Reading While Black”
- Works by Wilda Gafney on womanist biblical interpretation
- Vincent Bacote, Drew Hart, and other contemporary voices
The Cosmopolitan Nature of First-Century Judaism - Study the diversity within first-century Jewish communities, including the various linguistic and cultural groups represented at Pentecost.
Intercultural Communication in Scripture - Examine biblical stories through the lens of cross-cultural interaction: Ruth and Naomi, Jesus and the Syrophoenician woman, Peter and Cornelius, Paul’s missionary journeys.

Comprehension Questions

How does Porshe describe the difference between Western individualism and the communal nature she experienced in Japan and sees in Scripture? What are the implications of this difference for how we understand and practice faith?
What specific biblical characters and stories does the conversation identify as missed opportunities for highlighting people of African descent in the biblical narrative? Choose one and explain how it could be taught differently.
Explain the true meaning of the “curse of Ham” discussion in Jewish interpretation versus how it has been misused in Western contexts. What does the correct understanding teach us about God’s heart?
Why does Porshe say she “cannot separate Biblical Texts from my current events, past events, social issues”? How does her family history connect to her reading of Scripture?
What does the scattering at Babel teach us about God’s design for humanity? How does this reframing change the meaning of the story from curse to divine intervention for human flourishing?

Personalized Summary

This episode represents a pivotal moment in BEMA’s journey - a compassionate, honest conversation about representation, belonging, and the missed opportunities in how Western Christianity has taught Scripture. Porshe Chiles brings her experience as a black woman who loves the Eastern perspective BEMA offers but who also needed to name the pain of not feeling seen in the narrative. Her feedback is given with grace, generosity, and boldness.

The conversation reveals how Western Christianity’s tendency to abstract the Bible - removing it from its geographical, cultural, and political context - serves those who belong to dominant culture while leaving others feeling excluded from a story that is actually deeply inclusive. The biblical world was cosmopolitan and diverse. People of African descent appear throughout Scripture in significant roles. Every biblical glimpse of heaven emphasizes diversity as the first and most important feature.

What makes this episode powerful is not just the content but the model it provides for having difficult conversations with curiosity and empathy. Marty acknowledges missed opportunities and apologizes for ways he has contributed to people feeling unseen. Porshe offers concrete suggestions for improvement. Both demonstrate how to engage across difference with honesty, humility, and hope.

The underlying message is clear: if we are ever going to “put the world back together,” we must learn to truly listen to those whose experiences differ from our own. We must resist the temptation to defend, explain away, or minimize. We must lean into discomfort. We must recognize that God created diversity intentionally and calls it good - not just in some future heaven, but here and now. And we must do the hard work of seeing people, really seeing them, the way God sees them: as beloved image-bearers He wants to partner with in His redemptive work.

This is not about political correctness or cultural trends. This is about the heart of the Gospel - a God who sees, who pursues, who includes, who invites everyone to the table. May we have the courage to follow His lead.

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S6 216: Porshe Chiles — Can We Talk?

Being Seen in the Narrative of God [50:46]