BEMA Episode Link: 228: Dallas Jenkins — Manna Program, Part 1
Episode Length: 47:33
Published Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 01:00:00 -0700
Session 6
About this episode:

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings are joined by special guest Dallas Jenkins, creator and director of The Chosen, to discuss all of the burning questions from Season 1 of this breakout series.

Thank you to Drew Schmitz of Harvest Bible Church in Phoenix for helping us set up this interview.

(No) Discussion Video for BEMA 228

The Chosen

The Chosen (TV Series) — Wikipedia

The Chosen (2017 TV Series) — IMDb

Transcript for BEMA 228

Additional audio production by Gus Simpson

Special Guest: Dallas Jenkins.

Notes

*Note: The following notes are handwritten by me, Adam, and I reserve the right to be wrong.

BEMA Episode 228 Study Notes: Dallas Jenkins - Manna Program, Part 1

Title & Source Summary

Episode: 228 - Dallas Jenkins - Manna Program, Part 1 Hosts: Marty Solomon and Brent Billings Special Guest: Dallas Jenkins (Creator and Director of The Chosen) Focus: Interview discussion about The Chosen television series, its creation, funding model, production philosophy, and approach to Biblical storytelling

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Dallas Jenkins, creator and director of The Chosen, the groundbreaking multi-season television series about the life of Jesus. Jenkins discusses the origins of the show, his unique crowdfunding approach which he calls the “manna program,” his philosophy on creating Christian art that prioritizes excellence over evangelism, and his methodology for bringing Biblical stories to life through historically-informed, plausible backstories. The conversation explores how Jenkins balances faithfulness to Scripture with creative storytelling, his casting decisions, and the challenges and blessings of maintaining dependence on God’s provision throughout the production process.

Key Takeaways

• The Chosen operates on what Jenkins calls the “manna program” - a funding model that requires daily dependence on God’s provision, similar to how the Israelites received manna in the wilderness. Despite the show’s success, each season remains unfunded until God provides.

• Jenkins’ primary operating principle when creating The Chosen is to make the best and most entertaining show possible, trusting God to handle Kingdom impact. He focuses on excellence in craft rather than leading with evangelistic intent.

• The show functions as a “Biblical midrash” (Jewish interpretive tradition) and follows “Ignatian” spirituality (imagining yourself in Biblical scenes), though these approaches are often unfamiliar to evangelical Christians who tend toward literal, word-based interpretation.

• Jenkins does not use a religious litmus test when hiring cast and crew. His team includes people from LDS, Catholic, atheist, Greek Orthodox, and agnostic backgrounds. He hires based solely on who is best for the role.

• The guiding creative principle for The Chosen is “plausibility” - every scene, word, and backstory must be historically and culturally plausible for first-century Galilee, even if it’s not explicitly in Scripture.

• Jenkins found his Jesus actor, Jonathan Roumie, while filming a short vignette about the crucifixion from the perspective of the two thieves. He knew immediately that Roumie had the perfect balance of masculinity, tenderness, and brokenness for the role.

• The show’s structure was influenced by The West Wing and Friday Night Lights - Jesus is at the center but not the sole main character, and the emotional impact comes from developing the backstories of the people Jesus encounters.

Main Concepts & Theories

The Manna Program: Daily Dependence on God

Jenkins’ wife coined the term “manna program” to describe their funding approach. Drawing from Exodus when God provided manna to the Israelites with explicit instructions not to store extra (which would rot), Jenkins sees this as God intentionally creating a posture of daily dependence. The Lord’s Prayer echoes this with “give us this day our daily bread.”

Despite The Chosen becoming one of the most successful Christian projects globally, Season 3 remains unfunded as Jenkins records this interview. This creates what he calls “Red Sea moments” weekly - situations where the only way forward is for God to part the waters. While painful and challenging, Jenkins sees this as one of the most beautiful experiences of his life, forcing him to rely completely on God rather than becoming comfortable or self-sufficient.

God told Jenkins’ wife, “I do impossible math” - a phrase that made no sense initially but has become the operating reality of the show. The crowdfunding model itself seemed ludicrous to Jenkins at first, coming after a career failure and box office bomb. When The Chosen shattered the all-time crowdfunding record by hitting $10 million, Jenkins realized two things: this was clearly a God thing beyond his capability, and this dependence would continue for the entire project.

Excellence in Craft vs. Evangelistic Intent

Jenkins articulates a counter-intuitive philosophy for Christian art: his primary focus when making The Chosen is creating the best and most entertaining show possible, not evangelism or Kingdom-building. He explains, “When I’m on set and when I’m writing, I can’t be thinking about, is this going to impact someone for Jesus? I can’t be thinking about building the Kingdom. I have to let God concentrate on that.”

This doesn’t mean ignoring Biblical faithfulness - honoring the Gospels and the character of Jesus is foundational to making a “good show.” But Jenkins separates his life’s operating principle (following Christ, dying to self) from his vocational craft (making excellent television). He uses the analogy of “loaves and fish” - his job is to provide the best five loaves and two fish he can through his trade, and then God multiplies them.

Jenkins acknowledges there’s a “transcendent” quality to The Chosen’s success that’s beyond his skill level - “I am not good enough to do what The Chosen has been doing. I’m just not.” This humility keeps him focused on his craft while trusting God for the impact.

This contrasts sharply with much Christian filmmaking of the past 50 years, where the primary focus was often saving souls or bringing people to Christ, sometimes at the expense of quality. Jenkins notes that his first 20 years of filmmaking may have fallen into this trap.

Midrash and Ignatian Spirituality: Non-Evangelical Interpretive Frameworks

Two of the most accurate descriptions of The Chosen have come from Jewish and Catholic traditions, not Jenkins’ own evangelical background:

Biblical Midrash (Jewish): Rabbi Jason Sobel, one of Jenkins’ consultants, identified the show as functioning like a Biblical midrash - a Jewish tradition of interpretive storytelling that fills gaps in Scripture with plausible narratives. This approach is unfamiliar to most evangelicals, who tend toward literal interpretation and distrust of imagination or metaphor.

Ignatian Spirituality (Catholic): A Catholic priest told Jenkins the show is “very Ignatian,” referring to Ignatius of Loyola’s practice of imaginatively placing yourself in Biblical scenes during prayer or reading. This immersive, experiential approach to Scripture contrasts with evangelical word-based, literary methods.

Jenkins finds it fascinating that the most vicious attacks on The Chosen come from evangelicals claiming he’s violating the command to “never add to Scripture.” Meanwhile, Jewish and Catholic viewers intuitively understand what he’s doing because these interpretive traditions are native to their faith practices.

Jenkins’ response: “I approach the show as a first-century drama based on the people of first-century Galilee, using historical context, cultural context, and artistic imagination to give color, backstory, and context to the Gospels.” He’s making a historical drama, not adding to the Bible.

The Plausibility Principle: Historical and Cultural Fidelity

The guiding creative question for every word written in The Chosen is: “Is this plausible?” Jenkins aims to accurately capture first-century Galilee through extensive research and consultation with cultural and historical experts.

This principle allows tremendous creative freedom while maintaining boundaries. Jenkins can create entirely new backstories for characters (Matthew’s autism-like characteristics, Thomas’s skepticism, Simon Peter’s financial struggles) as long as they’re historically and culturally plausible and don’t contradict the character or intentions of Jesus or the Gospels.

Jenkins states emphatically: “The Bible is the Bible. We’re not adding to the Bible because your Bible has not changed since The Chosen came out. The Bible has a very distinct purpose. This is a TV show.”

The show incorporates details that delight scholars and students of first-century Judaism - references to the debates between Hillel and Shammai, accurate Shabbat practices, cultural customs around purity and honor-shame dynamics. This historical richness serves the story while educating viewers about the world Jesus actually inhabited.

Jenkins believes people intuitively know the difference between the Bible and a TV show, so he stopped worrying about whether his creative choices bothered certain groups. His focus remains on creating a plausible, culturally-informed portrayal of the Gospel narratives.

Hollywood Influence and the Tools of the Trade

Jenkins acknowledges an irony his fans often miss: while The Chosen is celebrated for being “free from Hollywood” through its distribution strategy and funding model, nearly all the cast and crew come from the Hollywood system, and 99% of what Jenkins knows about filmmaking comes from Hollywood influence.

He uses the analogy of learning any trade - you don’t learn plumbing or architecture from the Bible, though Biblical principles like discipline and surrender shape how you approach your work. Similarly, the best filmmaking techniques “just plain and simple” come from Hollywood, where people in the early 1900s recognized film would be the most influential medium and committed to mastering it.

Jenkins wishes more Christians had pursued excellence in this medium over the last 100 years (noting Christian influence was more common 500 years ago). His own film education came from universally revered movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (which changed his life in high school), Schindler’s List, and Inglorious Basterds (influences for the character Quintus).

He separates what comes from his Christian formation (understanding of Jesus, Biblical feel, knowledge from Bible school and godly parents) from his filmmaking craft (camera placement, cinematography, structural storytelling). Both are necessary, but they come from different sources.

Backstory as Emotional Foundation: Three-Act Structure

Jenkins observed that most Bible movies jump from miracle to miracle, verse to verse, without developing the people Jesus impacts. We see Jesus heal a blind man or bleeding woman, but we don’t know anything about them, so there’s minimal emotional impact.

The Chosen operates on the principle that “Jesus moments are five times more impactful when we’ve seen what led up to them.” By developing first and second acts for the people who encounter Jesus, the third-act climax becomes genuinely moving.

Jenkins cites Episode 2 of Season 1 (Jesus at Mary Magdalene’s Shabbat dinner) as an example - none of it comes directly from Scripture, yet it “feels the most like what this would have been.” The emotional payoff works because viewers have walked through Mary’s backstory and understand what Jesus’ presence at that table means to her.

This approach draws from shows like The West Wing (where the President is central but not the sole character) and Friday Night Lights (authentic, immediate camerawork style). Jesus is at the center of The Chosen, but the story is told “through the eyes of those who actually met him.”

Examples & Applications

The Short Film Journey: Testing Creative Principles

Jenkins didn’t start with The Chosen fully formed. He tested his creative instincts through a series of short films for his church over about nine years:

The Cross Builder (9 years before The Chosen): A vignette about the craftsman who built the cross Jesus was crucified on. The camera focuses only on the cross - him cutting the tree, removing bark, adding his craftsman’s initials. You hear dialogue suggesting it’s for some prisoner. Then you see the cross dragged through streets, nails going through, blood pooling. The builder returns to see blood covering his initials. He realizes he built Jesus’ cross. The profound response from his church encouraged Jenkins to continue.

Two Thieves on the Cross: Jenkins and his co-writer developed plausible backstories for the two criminals crucified beside Jesus using cultural and historical context. This is where he first cast Jonathan Roumie. During filming, watching Roumie on the cross for just five minutes, Jenkins thought, “This is the best portrayal of Jesus I’ve ever seen” - the perfect balance of masculinity, tenderness, and brokenness. When Roumie delivered “My God, why have you forsaken me?” with weeping and genuine brokenness, Jenkins knew he’d found something special.

The First Jesus Joke: In a flashback to Simon Peter’s declaration “You are the Son of God” and Jesus naming him Peter, Jenkins set up the scene with disciples arm wrestling. When Andrew loses to Thaddeus (shocking everyone), Jesus quips, “Even I didn’t see that coming.”

The church’s reaction was profound - laughter mixed with appreciation, almost relief. People afterwards said, “That joke was so good,” reacting far more strongly than to verse-by-verse reenactments. Jenkins’ wife had been uncertain if it would work, but the overwhelming positive response confirmed this approach “connects people to Jesus even more” than strict Biblical reproduction.

These short films became a laboratory where Jenkins discovered that creative, culturally-informed backstories with plausible dialogue and even humor created “overwhelming guttural responses” similar to what he felt watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest in high school.

Crowdfunding Crisis to $10 Million Record

Coming off a career failure - a movie that completely bombed at the box office - Jenkins didn’t know if he’d ever make another film. He created a short film for his church (The Shepherd, about the birth of Christ from shepherds’ perspective) with no grander plans.

When partners suggested crowdfunding a multi-season show, Jenkins thought it was “ludicrous” and “wouldn’t work.” His association with crowdfunding was failed Facebook campaigns where the progress bar never quite reaches the goal - and those were for $200 projects, not the millions needed for quality production.

He felt the approach would be “humbling and embarrassing and desperate” - exactly what he didn’t want after a major failure. But when the campaign shattered the all-time crowdfunding record at $10 million, Jenkins had simultaneous realizations: “Wow, that’s clearly not anything I’m ever capable of. This is clearly a God thing” AND “I thought maybe I could relax now, but God immediately was like, ‘Oh no, this is going to be the case for the rest of this project.’”

Even as The Chosen became one of the most successful Christian projects globally, with the app available in every country and widespread cultural impact, Season 3 remained unfunded at the time of this interview. Jenkins experiences this weekly tension of dependence.

Casting Decisions: Finding the Only Person Right for Each Role

When casting is restricted by age, ethnicity, or other factors, finding great actors becomes exponentially harder. For The Chosen, needing actors of appropriate ethnic backgrounds and age ranges within the limited pool of available talent made every casting decision challenging.

Shahar Isaac as Simon Peter: Cast within 15 seconds of his audition. “He was just playing a different tune than everybody else.”

Noah James as Andrew: Originally auditioned for the shepherd in the Christmas short film. Jenkins was glad he didn’t cast him then because he was perfect for Andrew. Later auditioned for Simon, did great, but wasn’t right. Jenkins knew “he has to be in the show” and eventually found the perfect fit.

Paras Patel as Matthew: David Amito auditioned for Matthew and did well, but Jenkins’ wife (who has “extraordinary casting instincts”) had a conviction: “I have a glitch. I think Paras Patel is Matthew. I don’t know why, I just know it in my soul.” When both came back, the decision became clear - Paras was the only choice for Matthew, David the only choice for John the Baptist.

The Big James Saga: The first actor cast got a role on a larger show and couldn’t continue when Season 1’s second half wasn’t yet greenlit. The second actor had a serious family medical crisis and had to return to Germany for months. Jenkins has now settled on Martel as “God’s man for Big James.”

Jenkins sees a pattern: “God has connected us with the right person every time and made the decision super easy because there were no other options. It’s like God just won’t let me screw this up.”

The West Wing Structure Applied to Jesus

Jenkins explicitly models The Chosen on The West Wing’s narrative structure. The West Wing’s creators originally considered never showing the President on screen - just the swirling context around the office. They eventually featured the President as central but not the sole focus.

Similarly, Jenkins developed his instinct for this through years of short films where Jesus loomed in the background but wasn’t prominently featured - the cross builder story, the thieves’ perspective, disciples hiding between crucifixion and resurrection.

By the time he conceived The Chosen, Jesus would be prominently involved (Jonathan Roumie was too good an actor to underutilize), but the show would tell Jesus’ story through the experiences and backstories of the people he encountered. The President doesn’t appear until the end of The West Wing’s first episode; Jesus doesn’t appear until the end of The Chosen’s first episode.

This structure allows for deeper emotional investment while maintaining Jesus as the central figure who gives meaning to everything else.

Potential Areas for Further Exploration

1. Midrashic Interpretation in Jewish Tradition: How has the Jewish practice of midrash functioned historically? What are its rules and boundaries? How does understanding midrash help Christians engage Scripture more imaginatively while maintaining faithfulness?

2. Ignatian Spirituality and Imaginative Prayer: What is the history and practice of Ignatian meditation? How can evangelicals incorporate imaginative engagement with Biblical texts without compromising commitment to Biblical authority?

3. The Relationship Between Excellence and Evangelism: How should Christians approach their vocations - leading with evangelistic intent or with pursuit of excellence? Is there a Biblical framework for “sacred vocation” that honors both calling and craft?

4. First-Century Galilee Historical Context: What cultural, economic, political, and religious realities shaped the world Jesus inhabited? How do debates like Hillel vs. Shammai, purity practices, Roman occupation, and honor-shame culture inform Gospel interpretation?

5. The Theology of Dependence: What does the manna narrative teach about God’s desire for our posture toward provision? How does the Lord’s Prayer connect to this Exodus theme? What does it mean practically to live on the “manna program”?

6. Christian Engagement with Hollywood and Popular Culture: Should Christians prioritize creating separate “Christian” media or infiltrating mainstream cultural institutions with excellence? What is the history of Christian cultural engagement over the past 500 years?

7. The “Can Anything Good Come from Nazareth?” Dynamic: How do Christians overcome skepticism about Christian art and media? What role does personal invitation (“come and see”) play in cultural apologetics?

8. Plausibility vs. Biblical Literalism: Where are the legitimate boundaries between creative interpretation and adding to Scripture? How can storytellers honor the text while filling in historically-informed gaps?

9. The Role of Suffering and Limitation in Creative Work: How do constraints (like ongoing funding uncertainty or ethnic casting requirements) potentially enhance rather than hinder creative output? What does it mean that “God won’t let me screw this up”?

10. Comparing Gospel Film Portrayals: How do different Jesus films (The Passion of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, Ben-Hur, The Greatest Story Ever Told, etc.) approach the challenge of portraying Christ? What theological and artistic decisions distinguish effective from ineffective portrayals?

Comprehension Questions

1. Explain the “manna program” concept and how it functions in The Chosen’s funding model. How does Jenkins connect this to the Exodus narrative and the Lord’s Prayer? Why does he describe it as both the hardest and most beautiful experience of his life?

2. What is Jenkins’ primary operating principle when creating The Chosen, and how does it differ from typical Christian filmmaking approaches? How does he reconcile focusing on excellence rather than evangelism with his commitment to honoring Christ?

3. What are midrash and Ignatian spirituality, and why is it significant that these frameworks came from Jewish and Catholic rather than evangelical sources? What does this reveal about different Christian traditions’ approaches to Scripture and imagination?

4. Describe the “plausibility principle” Jenkins uses as his creative guideline. What boundaries does it establish, and what freedoms does it allow? How does he respond to criticism that he’s “adding to Scripture”?

5. How did the series of short films Jenkins created for his church serve as a testing ground for The Chosen? Give specific examples of what he learned from the responses to these vignettes, particularly regarding backstory, humor, and emotional impact.

Personalized Summary

This episode offers a masterclass in both faithful creativity and radical dependence on God. Dallas Jenkins emerges as someone who has learned painful but beautiful lessons about surrendering outcomes while pursuing excellence in craft. His “manna program” approach - living with constant financial uncertainty despite unprecedented success - challenges comfortable Christianity and demonstrates what daily dependence on God actually looks like.

Perhaps most striking is Jenkins’ willingness to separate his life’s operating principle (following Christ) from his vocational focus (making great television). This isn’t compartmentalization but proper ordering - he’s discovered that leading with evangelistic intent often produces inferior art, while pursuing excellence with Biblical faithfulness creates space for God to do “impossible math.” His metaphor of providing the best loaves and fish while trusting God to multiply them captures this beautifully.

The revelation that The Chosen functions as “Biblical midrash” and follows “Ignatian” spirituality - interpretive frameworks foreign to evangelicalism - is delightfully ironic. The most culturally impactful evangelical project in decades operates according to Jewish and Catholic principles of imaginative engagement with Scripture. This should prompt evangelicals to reconsider what we’ve lost by prioritizing literal interpretation at the expense of sanctified imagination.

Jenkins’ commitment to historical and cultural plausibility elevates The Chosen above typical Bible films. Details like Hillel and Shammai debates aren’t just scholarly flourishes - they anchor the story in the real first-century world Jesus inhabited, making the familiar strange again and the strange familiar. This plausibility principle allows tremendous creative freedom while maintaining clear boundaries: don’t contradict the character of Jesus or the Gospels, and stay true to what could have plausibly happened in that time and place.

Finally, Jenkins’ testimony about discovering Jonathan Roumie, about casting decisions falling into place, and about God not letting him “screw this up” points to divine orchestration beyond human planning. The pattern of weekly Red Sea moments, of impossible math, of loaves and fish being multiplied - this is the realm of faith where dependence becomes worship and vulnerability becomes strength. The success of The Chosen isn’t primarily about crowdfunding innovation or skilled filmmaking; it’s about what God does when someone offers their best work while maintaining the posture of empty hands waiting for daily bread.

Edit | Previous | Next