BEMA Episode Link: 229: Dallas Jenkins — Manna Program, Part 2
Episode Length: 48:09
Published Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 01:00:00 -0700
Session 6
About this episode:

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings continue a conversation with special guest Dallas Jenkins, creator and director of The Chosen, on Season 1 of this breakout series.

Thank you to Drew Schmitz of Harvest Bible Church in Phoenix for helping us set up this interview.

(No) Discussion Video for BEMA 229

“Can you trust The Chosen?” — The Chosen, YouTube

The Chosen’s Channel on YouTube

The Chosen

The Chosen (TV Series) — Wikipedia

The Chosen (2017 TV Series) — IMDb

Transcript for BEMA 229

Additional audio production by Gus Simpson

Special Guest: Dallas Jenkins.

Notes

*Note: The following notes are handwritten by me, Adam, and I reserve the right to be wrong.

BEMA 229: Dallas Jenkins - Manna Program, Part 2 - Study Notes

Title & Source Summary

Episode: 229 - Dallas Jenkins - Manna Program, Part 2 Hosts: Marty Solomon and Brent Billings with special guest Dallas Jenkins (creator and director of The Chosen) Focus: Production philosophy, theological decision-making, and the nature of Christ in The Chosen

This episode continues the conversation with Dallas Jenkins, exploring the theological and practical considerations involved in creating The Chosen. The discussion centers on Dallas’s production philosophy, his approach to balancing divine and human aspects of Jesus’s character, the role of consultation boards in maintaining accuracy, and the personal spiritual impact of creating the series. Key topics include the “God goggles” debate about Jesus’s divinity versus humanity, the challenges of portraying biblical figures authentically, and the immense responsibility of creating content that impacts millions of viewers’ faith journeys.

Key Takeaways

• Dallas employs a Bible consultant board consisting of a Catholic priest, Messianic Jewish rabbi, and evangelical scholar who raise red flags but don’t have veto power over creative decisions
• The production operates on the principle that the Gospels and history take precedence over religious traditions, asking “Is it accurate?” and “Is it plausible?”
• Dallas intentionally avoids taking a definitive stance on exactly how Jesus’s divine and human natures operated, preferring to portray a middle ground that allows for both divine knowledge and human limitations
• The series prioritizes the story over interpretation, which has proven to be a unifying factor across diverse faith traditions
• God has consistently kept Dallas in a “Red Sea situation” where intimacy with God remains essential, preventing reliance on human effort or control
• The most controversial moment in the series to date was 10 seconds of Jesus struggling with sermon preparation, generating more debate than any other scene
• Dallas views the weight of responsibility for the series as both beautiful and terrifying, given the reports of how it’s impacting people’s faith lives
• The production makes intentional choices to break filmmaking “rules” when the best performance or visual requires it, prioritizing emotional impact over technical perfection

Main Concepts & Theories

Production Philosophy and Guardrails

Dallas operates with a structured but flexible approach to maintaining biblical accuracy while exercising creative freedom. His Bible consultant board represents three major Christian traditions, providing diverse perspectives that help identify potential problems before they reach the audience. This board operates by raising “red flags” rather than exercising veto power, allowing Dallas to maintain creative control while being informed of concerns.

The consultants alert Dallas to two main categories of issues: factual inaccuracy (culturally, historically, or biblically) and implausibility within the ancient context. A prime example involved Simon Peter fishing on Shabbat in the early episodes. Rabbi Jason Sobel objected that this would never happen, leading to a compromise where the scene remained but was reframed to emphasize the severity of Peter’s violation - his wife and brother are scandalized, and Peter himself knows he’s crossing a serious line.

Dallas also works with Father David Guffey to avoid unnecessarily offensive choices for Catholic viewers. The principle isn’t about avoiding all offense, but about not stumbling over avoidable landmines when they serve no essential purpose. For instance, if a hand gesture Jesus makes would be offensive to 90 percent of viewers, and that gesture isn’t important to the story, there’s no reason to include it.

The “God Goggles” Debate

The central theological tension in the series concerns how Jesus’s divine and human natures functioned in practice. This debate has been nicknamed “God goggles” - did Jesus walk around constantly accessing divine omniscience, or did he operate primarily as a human being with access to divine knowledge through prayer and the Holy Spirit?

Dallas explicitly states he doesn’t fully know the answer and intentionally portrays a middle ground. He believes Jesus was accessing God’s knowledge, wisdom, and power from the Father, but did so as a perfect man who always accessed it correctly - he knew when and how to pray to receive what he needed. This explains moments in the Gospels where Jesus asks questions like “Where is Lazarus’s tomb?” or “Who touched my garment?” - Dallas believes these were genuine questions, not tests.

The production includes visual cues showing Jesus glancing toward heaven before miracles, either in appreciation or as a subtle check-in with the Father. Dallas rejects the “Bruce Almighty” model where Jesus is constantly bombarded with everyone’s thoughts and omniscient knowledge. Instead, he portrays Jesus as fully present in conversations, receiving information from people rather than already knowing everything.

This middle position has generated criticism from both sides. Some viewers complained about scenes where Jesus appears too divine (like knowing the Samaritan woman’s history), while others objected to scenes where he appears too human (like struggling with sermon preparation). Dallas sees this dual criticism as validation that he’s landed in an appropriate middle ground.

Philippians 2 and Kenosis Theology

Dallas grounds his Christological approach in Philippians 2, which describes Jesus as not considering equality with God something to be grasped, but emptying himself and taking the form of a servant. However, Dallas notes the text doesn’t say Jesus gave up his divinity entirely - it says he “emptied himself” and didn’t see equality with God as something to hold onto.

Key biblical passages that inform Dallas’s view include Jesus in Gethsemane, Jesus on the cross asking “Why have you forsaken me?”, and Jesus asking questions that suggest he doesn’t already know the answers. Dallas believes Jesus wasn’t lying when he asked where Lazarus was buried or who touched his garment - he genuinely didn’t know until the Father revealed it.

This theological framework allows for scenes like Jesus saying “I am who I am” to John (clearly claiming divinity) while also showing Jesus in intense prayer seeking guidance. The prayer scenes provide a theological explanation for Jesus’s knowledge - just as the Holy Spirit reveals things to believers in prayer, the Spirit could reveal things to Jesus through his perfect prayer life and relationship with the Father.

Story Over Interpretation as Unifying Principle

One of Dallas’s most significant observations is that the actual stories of Jesus in the Gospels generate surprisingly little disagreement across faith traditions. While interpretations of who Jesus was “at the beginning of time or in infinity” create divisions, and theological developments “500 years later” spark debates, the narrative events themselves unite diverse groups.

This explains the remarkable diversity in The Chosen’s fanbase. Catholics, Protestants, Messianic Jews, and even members of the LDS faith find common ground in the Gospel stories. When these diverse viewers gather in fan communities, they’re initially surprised to find each other there, echoing the surprise of the original disciples who came from different backgrounds and expectations.

By focusing on story rather than interpretation, the series avoids many theological landmines. The Gospels in themselves are rarely the source of denominational conflict - it’s the interpretive frameworks built around them that create divisions. This principle allows The Chosen to appeal to tens of millions of viewers across theological traditions.

The Personal Spiritual Journey of the Creator

Dallas describes the series as fundamentally transformative for his personal faith. God has consistently placed him in “Red Sea situations” where human effort is insufficient and intimate dependence on God becomes essential. This prevents him from becoming comfortable or self-reliant in the work.

A pivotal moment occurred in Magdala, Israel, at the synagogue where Jesus clearly preached. While standing there, Dallas experienced what he describes as God speaking to his heart with unusual clarity: “In several years, when people think of my followers from the first century, your show is going to be what they think of. I’m not going to let you screw it up.” This moment was simultaneously frightening, beautiful, and comforting.

Dallas emphasizes he doesn’t claim the show is divinely inspired like Scripture, but he has felt God’s presence throughout the project in unprecedented ways. This has driven him to Scripture more intensely than ever in his life, motivated by a desperation not to fail in his responsibility.

The recurring theme in miracle scenes - “Look at me,” “Look up,” “Don’t look at him, look at me” - reflects Dallas’s own spiritual experience. He finds himself constantly redirected away from metrics, success, and impact toward simply looking at Jesus. Whenever he focuses on viewership numbers or the show’s influence, he feels God drawing him back to intimacy with the divine.

Strength as Weakness: Character Development

Dallas employs a principle that every strength is also a weakness when operating in human flesh. This is most evident in his portrayal of Peter as a fiercely loyal person. Peter’s loyalty to God and to Jesus is extraordinary - he falls to his knees immediately when called, declares he’ll follow Jesus to the ends of the earth, and demonstrates deep knowledge of Jewish history and theology.

However, that same loyalty becomes problematic when misdirected. Peter’s loyalty to family in a moment of desperation leads to fishing on Shabbat. His loyalty to God makes him attack Matthew (the tax collector) with a devastating recitation of Jewish history. His loyalty causes him to be impulsive and “knock over glasses in the store” as Jesus might say - well-intentioned but sometimes poorly timed.

This principle humanizes biblical characters without diminishing their spiritual depth. Peter isn’t portrayed as ignorant or simpleminded but as a brilliant, devoted man whose greatest strength can also cloud his judgment when the flesh takes over. This mirrors the experience of all believers whose best qualities can become liabilities in moments of weakness.

The Weight of Spiritual Authority

Dallas is acutely aware of the enormous responsibility he carries as the creator of content that’s affecting millions of people’s faith. He regularly receives messages saying “Your show brought me to Jesus” or “Your show is causing our family to study the Bible more.” While beautiful, these testimonies are also terrifying because they reveal how people are looking to him for spiritual provision.

He desperately tries to redirect people away from himself toward the show and ultimately toward God, but recognizes that people inevitably connect the messenger with the message. This creates an “extraordinary weight” that he doesn’t ask sympathy for but that significantly impacts how he approaches decisions.

Dallas values criticism and analysis from thoughtful believers precisely because of this weight. He describes podcasts like BEMA as “warning lights on a dashboard” - pastoral voices and theological thinkers who help him assess whether he’s on the right track. Even when he disagrees with specific critiques, the process of wrestling with informed perspectives from people devoted to ministry and God’s word is invaluable.

Practical Filmmaking Decisions

Dallas and his cinematographer Akis Konstantakopoulos make intentional choices to violate filmmaking “rules” when it serves the story. The most notable example is “crossing the 180-line” in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in episode seven. This is a fundamental rule of film grammar that maintains spatial orientation for viewers.

However, when filming that scene with a 360-degree camera move circling the characters, the best performance occurred at a moment that would violate the line. Dallas chose the superior performance and visual over technical correctness, believing the vast majority of viewers wouldn’t notice the violation because they’d be absorbed in the emotional content.

The same principle applies to continuity issues with sunlight. When the woman at the well scene shows sunset light in crane shots but soft diffused light in close-ups, or when Jesus heals the leper with the sun behind them and then hours later the sun is still out, these aren’t mistakes - they’re choices. The question is always: what looks best and serves the story most effectively?

This pragmatic approach prioritizes emotional truth over technical perfection. Rules exist for good reasons and should be followed 99 percent of the time, but when the exception creates something more beautiful or moving, Dallas believes the rule can be broken.

Examples & Applications

The Shabbat Fishing Scene

When Simon Peter is portrayed fishing on Shabbat in his desperate attempt to feed his family, Rabbi Jason Sobel raised a significant red flag. The original portrayal was too casual, not recognizing the severity of this violation for a devout Jew. The compromise solution shows Peter knowing it’s wrong, his conscience troubled, and the people around him scandalized by his choice. This transforms the scene from a simple plot device into a moment revealing Peter’s desperation and the moral weight of his decision.

The Sermon Preparation Scene

Ten seconds of Jesus working through the wording of his sermon became the most controversial moment in the entire series. Viewers responded with intense criticism, some withdrawing their support for the show. This tiny moment generated more debate than any other scene, revealing how sensitive viewers are to portrayals that suggest Jesus didn’t have immediate, perfect divine knowledge. Dallas’s response was to point to multiple other scenes clearly affirming Jesus’s divinity, arguing for a balanced portrayal.

The Samaritan Woman

The encounter with the woman at the well presents Jesus with clear supernatural knowledge of her history with five husbands. The series “doubled down” on this divine knowledge, giving Jesus information he couldn’t have known naturally. This was “red meat” for viewers who want to see Jesus’s divine nature. However, Marty suggests in the podcast an alternative scholarly interpretation - that the five husbands represent the five books of Torah and the woman may have been a Samaritan priestess, with Jesus’s knowledge coming from understanding her religious role rather than supernatural insight. Dallas acknowledges he’d never heard this interpretation and is glad he didn’t use it, as it would have been too obscure for the audience.

The Mary Magdalene Information Scene

In episode seven, Mary Magdalene describes a Pharisee who wants to meet Jesus, and Jesus responds, “Oh yes, I think I know who you’re talking about. I’ve heard of him.” This is a subtle portrayal of Dallas’s philosophy - Jesus is genuinely listening and receiving information he didn’t previously have, operating as a human in conversation rather than omnisciently knowing everything before it’s said.

Peter’s Attack on Matthew

In episode three, Peter confronts Matthew the tax collector with a devastating recitation of Jewish history and what bound the Jewish people together as a community - everything Matthew betrayed by collecting taxes for Rome. Many viewers felt Peter was bullying Matthew, but Dallas notes that everything Peter says is “absolutely true.” This scene demonstrates Peter’s fierce loyalty to his people and his deep knowledge of Jewish history, while also showing how that loyalty can manifest as harsh judgment.

The Mount of Transfiguration

Marty points out that Peter’s suggestion to build three shelters at the Transfiguration isn’t an impulsive, foolish remark as often interpreted. Rather, it demonstrates Peter’s sophisticated understanding of Jewish tradition - the scene echoes Sinai where the next event is the construction of the Tabernacle, and Jewish midrash extensively discusses this connection. Peter’s comment reveals his theological astuteness, not his ignorance.

The “Interesting Point” Moment

In Season 2, after Jesus heals the withered hand, a priest objects, “If God would have wanted him healed, he would have done it himself.” Jesus responds with a simple “Interesting point” - a subtle but clear claim to divinity that many viewers missed. This exemplifies how Dallas includes multiple affirmations of Jesus’s divine nature throughout the series for those paying attention.

The Magdala Synagogue Experience

Dallas’s spiritual encounter in Magdala represents a defining moment for the entire project. Standing in a synagogue where Jesus demonstrably preached, with 1,500-year-old floor inscriptions marking the location, Dallas felt God speak with unusual clarity about the show’s future impact. This wasn’t a claim of divine inspiration for the show itself, but a personal assurance of God’s presence and involvement in the project. The experience transformed Dallas’s approach, making the work intensely spiritual rather than merely professional.

The Moving to Texas Reality

When asked if there’s a break between seasons, Dallas’s laughter and description of his reality provides a sobering example of the demands of the project. Three days before moving his family to Texas, he’s surrounded by boxes while completing Season 3 scripts, finalizing a Christmas special, working on devotional books and Bible studies, and staying up until 6:00 AM doing video recordings. His wife’s near-tears reaction to the suggestion of a “break” illustrates the consuming nature of the work and Dallas’s recognition that he needs to improve at practicing Sabbath and rest.

Potential Areas for Further Exploration

Kenosis Theology and Christological Models

The “emptying” of Christ described in Philippians 2 has generated numerous theological models throughout church history. How have different traditions understood the relationship between Jesus’s divine and human natures? What are the implications of kenotic theology for understanding the Incarnation? How do Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant traditions differ in their Christology? The conversation in this episode touches on these deep waters but doesn’t fully explore the historical theological debates.

The Role of the Holy Spirit in Jesus’s Ministry

If Jesus operated primarily as a human being empowered by the Holy Spirit, what does this mean for believers who also have access to the Spirit? How does Jesus’s prayer life and relationship with the Father model what’s available to followers? What’s the relationship between Jesus’s unique status as God incarnate and the Spirit’s work in his human ministry? This framework has implications for pneumatology and practical Christian living.

Jewish Views of Shabbat and Religious Observance

Rabbi Jason’s strong reaction to Peter fishing on Shabbat reflects the centrality of Sabbath observance in Jewish faith. What are the theological foundations for Shabbat in Jewish thought? How did first-century Jews understand the severity of Sabbath violations? What were the actual practices and restrictions? How does this inform our reading of Gospel accounts where Jesus is accused of Sabbath-breaking?

The Samaritan Woman and Alternative Interpretations

Marty’s mention of the woman at the well potentially being a Samaritan priestess opens fascinating questions. What do we know about Samaritan religious practices in the first century? How were women involved in Samaritan worship? What are the scholarly arguments for and against this interpretation? How does understanding Samaritan theology illuminate Jesus’s conversation about worship “in spirit and truth”?

Tax Collectors in First-Century Judaism

Peter’s attack on Matthew reveals the depth of betrayal represented by tax collection. What was the social and religious status of tax collectors? How did they function within the Roman system? Why were they particularly despised beyond mere financial exploitation? What would “repentance” and restoration look like for someone in Matthew’s position?

Cross-Cultural Faith Expression and The Chosen’s Impact

The diverse faith community gathering around The Chosen represents a unique phenomenon. What does this reveal about the unifying power of narrative? How do different traditions respond to the same stories? What are the theological boundaries of cooperation between traditions with different doctrines? How can story create space for dialogue where doctrinal discussion creates division?

Media Responsibility and Spiritual Authority

Dallas’s awareness of his spiritual influence raises questions about the nature of authority in Christian media. What responsibility do Christian artists and creators bear for how their work shapes faith? How should creators balance artistic freedom with theological care? What’s the difference between claiming divine inspiration and acknowledging God’s work in creative projects? How do audiences appropriately engage with religious media - as art, as teaching, or as something else?

Filmmaking as Theological Method

The production choices in The Chosen reflect theological commitments. How does visual language convey theological meaning? What’s lost and gained when translating biblical text into visual storytelling? How do filmmaking conventions shape our understanding of biblical narratives? What ethical considerations arise when creating images of Jesus that will shape viewers’ mental pictures?

The Economics of Faith-Based Media

The crowdfunding model for The Chosen represents a new approach to Christian entertainment. How does this model affect creative freedom? What are the benefits and limitations of audience-funded content? How does financial dependence on viewers influence creative decisions? What does this model suggest about the future of faith-based media?

Sabbath and Rest in Ministry Contexts

Dallas’s confession about needing to practice Sabbath better reflects a common struggle in ministry and creative work. How do we understand Sabbath when engaged in “God’s work”? What are the dangers of perpetual activity even in service of good things? How do we discern between faithful diligence and workaholic drivenness? What does sustainable, Spirit-sustained ministry look like?

Comprehension Questions

1. Explain the role and function of Dallas’s Bible consultant board. What are the two main types of concerns they raise, and why doesn’t Dallas give them veto power over creative decisions?

2. Describe Dallas’s position on the “God goggles” debate regarding Jesus’s divine and human natures. What biblical examples does he use to support his middle-ground approach, and why does he see criticism from both sides as positive?

3. How does Dallas apply the principle that “strength is also weakness” to his portrayal of Peter’s character? Provide specific examples from the series that illustrate this approach.

4. What was the most controversial scene in The Chosen according to Dallas, and why was it so problematic for viewers? How does Dallas defend this scene while also pointing to other scenes that affirm Jesus’s divinity?

5. Describe Dallas’s spiritual experience in Magdala and its impact on his approach to creating The Chosen. Why does he emphasize both the beauty and terror of this responsibility?

Personalized Summary

This episode reveals the incredible complexity of creating biblically-based media that serves a diverse faith community. Dallas Jenkins navigates an almost impossible task - portraying Jesus in a way that honors both his divinity and humanity while avoiding unnecessary offense to various Christian traditions. His solution is remarkably humble: he admits he doesn’t fully know how Jesus’s two natures functioned, so he portrays a middle ground that allows for both divine knowledge and human limitation.

What strikes me most is Dallas’s spiritual posture throughout this massive project. Rather than becoming confident or proud as the show’s influence grows, he describes being kept in constant dependence on God, never allowed to feel comfortable or in control. His experience in Magdala, where he felt God promise not to let him fail, transforms the work from a professional project into an intensely personal spiritual journey.

The conversation about “God goggles” is fascinating because it touches on questions the church has wrestled with for centuries. How did Jesus know things? When did he access divine knowledge? Did he walk around omniscient, or did he live fully human while perfectly accessing the Father’s wisdom through prayer? Dallas wisely refuses to take a dogmatic stance, instead showing both sides - moments of clear divine knowledge alongside moments of very human limitation.

I appreciate his emphasis on story over interpretation as a unifying principle. The actual events of the Gospels bring together people from wildly different theological backgrounds, while interpretive frameworks divide them. This suggests something profound about the nature of the Gospel narratives themselves - they’re meant to be encountered as story, as events that happened, not merely as theological propositions to be debated.

The weight Dallas carries is sobering. When millions of people tell you your work brought them to Jesus or transformed their Bible reading, that’s both beautiful and terrifying. His openness to critique from thoughtful believers like Marty and Brent demonstrates wisdom - he needs those “dashboard warning lights” to help him navigate responsibly.

Finally, his struggle with rest and Sabbath reminds us that even the most Spirit-led, God-honoring work can become consuming if we’re not careful. The irony of creating a show about Jesus while having no time to simply be with Jesus isn’t lost on Dallas. It’s a warning for anyone involved in ministry or creative work for the Kingdom - the work itself can become an idol if we’re not intentional about rest and intimacy with God.

The episode leaves me with deep appreciation for the thought, prayer, consultation, and spiritual wrestling that goes into The Chosen. It’s not perfect - no human creation is - but it’s created with remarkable care, theological thoughtfulness, and genuine dependence on God. That’s about as much as we can ask for in any human attempt to tell sacred stories.

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